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freethinkingme

Vote Buying and Vote Rewards

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This thread is about Block Producers giving out rewards in exchange for votes. This is an ongoing discussion in the Telegram group that I suggested be ported over here in order to make the discussion more organized so that someone who wasn't previously in on the discussion could follow the arguments more coherently.

I have a vested interest in this topic as part of my platform in being a BP is giving out proportionate rewards in exchange for votes. The rationale for this is to give ordinary users a reason to stake their ENU tokens. It will be similar to mining for them. I look at it from the point of view of an ordinary ENU holder. Why would I bother to stake/vote if I'm not getting anything out of it, plus the 3-day unstaking time makes it disadvantageous for me in case I want to trade my ENU.

May I request one of the others who began the discussion to give a summary so far of the points discussed on Telegram? @Tom or @Ovi-Wan Kenobi or @Peesus or @Sosolean. Thanks.

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I am aware that the EOS constitution forbids this, however I also know that @enumivo has nothing against this and has even left out the EOS constitution when he setup ENU. But in another chat with him, he said would rather remain neutral and have us sort it out among ourselves.

Personally, I am not that attached to the idea. I just honestly cannot think of some cause I can devote to at the moment as my brick and mortar business takes up most of my time. So, I'm interested to hear the for and against views.

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Hi community have been discussing with Tom and a couple of bps about the voting reward dilema for people who stake their enumivo.

Our thoughts to detach the voting from the reward, was to reward for staking rather then voting for specific bps

we could allocate 0.5% from the 4% which is currently been set to savings to a staking reward fund.

reward = (their staked amount/total staked) * staking reward fund for the day

Hopefully can setup a claim button in the gui ideally on the voting page where they can claim in the same manner that the bps do every 24 hours?

By doing it this way we want to incentivise people to stake without saying to them vote for us and we will give you x% of our reward. if we seperate the the vote from the reward, people will vote for the best BP not the bp thats giving best reward.

 

if you think about a normal election candidates would not be able to come to public and say vote for me and I’ll buy you beer every Friday as it would be seen as a bribe, in the same way don’t believe bp should be able to directly reward voters.

would like to hear people’s thoughts?

 

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9 minutes ago, Sosolean said:

By doing it this way we want to incentivise people to stake without saying to them vote for us and we will give you x% of our reward. if we seperate the the vote from the reward, people will vote for the best BP not the bp thats giving best reward. 

This sounds good and I think I can be on board with this if we can implement it. Reward users for STAKING and let them vote for the best BP.

What if they only stake but do not vote for anyone? Do they still get rewards?

Edited by freethinkingme

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17 minutes ago, Sosolean said:

Our thoughts to detach the voting from the reward, was to reward for staking rather then voting for specific bps

Good idea, I agree with this solution.

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As the check I was suggesting was based on staking would not check if they had voted. Was just trying to keep it simple, my thinking was that if they have staked they have the option to vote. We could implement something whereby the claim button would not go active till votes reconfirmed, but dunno if that’s taking things too far?

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13 minutes ago, Sosolean said:

As the check I was suggesting was based on staking would not check if they had voted. Was just trying to keep it simple, my thinking was that if they have staked they have the option to vote. We could implement something whereby the claim button would not go active till votes reconfirmed, but dunno if that’s taking things too far?

Yes, I actually agree with keeping it simple. The act of staking would already lock in their tokens and make it subject to the 3-day unstaking period regardless of whether they voted or not.

However, I was thinking in terms of -- would there be adverse effects to just rewarding staking even without voting? Would that have a negative effect somehow?

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1 hour ago, freethinkingme said:

would there be adverse effects to just rewarding staking even without voting? Would that have a negative effect somehow?

I think it doesn't matter if some people don't vote, coz most of them don't care too much about Enumivo. It will be better that they don't vote than reward them to vote randomly.

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I don't think it should be compulsory to vote hence me saying the third option was probably bit too far. We trying to build an ecosystem which is fair where participants have the freedom to choose

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I don't think it should be compulsory to vote but maybe we should incentivise it? Maybe do something like those who only stake get x while those who stake and vote get x + y

As I have said before, voting should be anonymous in my opinion. Otherwise it is not a democracy it is just a group of people bidding on voters.

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I don't think anonymity is an issue here. But the scenario I've seen before is to stake way longer than 3 days. 

The benefit of locking the tokens is that the network evolve, people get involved into the community because they have their coins staked and the reward can be as such. The scenario that I've seen before was on a decentralized exchange where staking started from 1 month upto a year.

Their reward plan was like this:
1 month - 0% Bonus
3 months - 20% Bonus
6 months - 50% Bonus
12 months - 100% Bonus.

Of course if everybody will stake for the whole year your reward will be as if everyone will stake for 1 month. So there's that.
And I think it will be best to be independent if you vote or not for someone. When you have your own coins to stake you will listen to people and you'll do your best to vote for the right BP that you fill it will offer you the brightest future.

In my opinion 3 days staking won't help anyone. If we should reward this we should reward people willing to put their own coins to stake so that we'll have less sell on the market and help grow the community.

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13 hours ago, Sosolean said:

Hi community have been discussing with Tom and a couple of bps about the voting reward dilema for people who stake their enumivo.

Our thoughts to detach the voting from the reward, was to reward for staking rather then voting for specific bps

we could allocate 0.5% from the 4% which is currently been set to savings to a staking reward fund.

reward = (their staked amount/total staked) * staking reward fund for the day

Hopefully can setup a claim button in the gui ideally on the voting page where they can claim in the same manner that the bps do every 24 hours?

By doing it this way we want to incentivise people to stake without saying to them vote for us and we will give you x% of our reward. if we seperate the the vote from the reward, people will vote for the best BP not the bp thats giving best reward.

 

if you think about a normal election candidates would not be able to come to public and say vote for me and I’ll buy you beer every Friday as it would be seen as a bribe, in the same way don’t believe bp should be able to directly reward voters.

would like to hear people’s thoughts?

 

"0.5% from the 4%"
if 4% is X ENU amount, by 0.5% you mean actually, 12.5% of X?

or, literally 0.5% from X?

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11 hours ago, Peesus said:

I don't think it should be compulsory to vote but maybe we should incentivise it? Maybe do something like those who only stake get x while those who stake and vote get x + y

As I have said before, voting should be anonymous in my opinion. Otherwise it is not a democracy it is just a group of people bidding on voters.

right now the votes are public, you can see who voted who. 

to make it private it is entirely another subject, pretty heavy one that disserves its own thread and debate.

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Yeah so if the 4% was 400 enu 0.5% out of that would be 50 enu would be allocated to the staking reward fund. These percentages are out of the inflation

Edited by Sosolean
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this is my ideal scenario, I am not sure yet if it can be implemented or not

1. we should reward those that stake

2. we should reward more those that stake and voted at least 15+ BPs

3. the rewards should be accrued automatically every 24 hours based on the percent of ENU you have staked compared with all ENU staked in the last 24h; so, every 00:00 hour UTC, the algorithm looks at all accounts that have staked and were not paid rewards for the last 24h and pays them the reward. that is, one has to have the token staked for at least 24h to get a reward, if it had them staked for less than that the will not get anything, they'll get rewards next day, if they keep the tokens staked.

 

Edited by Ovi-Wan Kenobi

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10 hours ago, Dragos said:

The benefit of locking the tokens is that the network evolve, people get involved into the community because they have their coins staked and the reward can be as such. The scenario that I've seen before was on a decentralized exchange where staking started from 1 month upto a year.

Their reward plan was like this:
1 month - 0% Bonus
3 months - 20% Bonus
6 months - 50% Bonus
12 months - 100% Bonus.

This is pretty interesting as well. We may not necessarily follow these numbers but I like the idea of rewarding people for staking longer...so it now acts like short-term vs. long-term time deposits.

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Although from a coding standpoint, I know that the more detailed our plan gets -- e.g. more rewards for those that vote and stake, more for those who stake longer, etc., the more difficult it gets to code, check and implement.

So we can sort of implement this in stages. Stage 1 would be the simplest and that is to reward people for staking, period. I don't even think there needs to be any time limit implemented on the staking at this stage. But I would require that you have to be staked in order to claim the reward. If you unstake before you claim, then you can't claim anymore until your unstaking is complete and you stake again.

So given this scenario, I can stake, then immediately claim, BUT after that I can only claim again in 24 hour cycles. There is no scenario where I can constantly stake/claim/unstake to try to cheat the system simply because unstaking takes 3 days so I would really be losing if I plan to do it that way. Let's just think of the 1st claim as sort of a bonus for staking.

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Phased implementation makes sense the pure staking would be easiest to implement then I guess we can look at larger reward for longer commitment later. Could the claim button not be coded to not be active unless tokens were staked?

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